When is DARK writing dangerous?

topic posted Fri, April 20, 2007 - 10:33 AM by  Stacie
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www.salon.com/news/featur...ive_writing/

Link is to an article in Salon about students who write grisly work, and whether there is a connection.

Where is the line between free expression and the signs of dangerous thinking? I'm interested to hear some viewpoints on this.
posted by:
Stacie
Nevada
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    Re: When is DARK writing dangerous?

    Fri, April 20, 2007 - 12:16 PM
    By reading his plays, the only thing that pops into my head is:

    Oooh, he killed all these people because his writing was AWFUL! That must have made him feel very bad about himself.

    Ok ok, I know, BAD ME!
    • Re: When is DARK writing dangerous?

      Fri, April 20, 2007 - 12:21 PM
      I don't think, as rational human beings, we will be able to figure out why he did that. He was clearly very disturbed.

      Having said that, was he disturbed because he was a bad writer, or was he a bad writer because he was bonkers?
      • Re: When is DARK writing dangerous?

        Fri, April 20, 2007 - 1:02 PM
        >>was he disturbed because he was a bad writer, or was he a bad writer because he was bonkers?

        Good question, but I don't think they were particularly connected. He was clearly broken as a human. He had apparently always had language issues and had been repeatedly picked on and laughed at, from his earliest years, for that very issue. I doubt, if he had been a better writer, whether anything would have been different. Maybe he would just have been more literary in his expressions of violence. And I suppose there would have been the outside chance that such a literary bent would have found him a little success and changed him enough not to open fire on a bunch of people. But, from the experience I've had in the literary realm, the chances of finding success like that seems unlikely. In fact, between trying to find an agent and getting published, I'm surprised more writers don't lose it entirely and do something equally insane.
      • Re: When is DARK writing dangerous?

        Fri, April 20, 2007 - 4:58 PM
        I don't even know where to begin here. So I'll put together a string of random thoughts:

        1. "was he disturbed because he was a bad writer, or was he a bad writer because he was bonkers?" immediately made me wonder how many distressed and disturbed individuals have been able to heal because they had the freedom to exorcise their demons on paper, canvas, etc., instead of in the flesh. That includes bad writers. Could punishing that expression create more severe problems?

        2. I've read much more disturbing and profane-laden material than Cho's plays. I see a lot of pain in his writing, but nothing that would necessarily set off alarm bells in me in and of themselves.

        3. That said, my heart and my thanks go out to his classmate Ian MacFarlane for sharing what he has, when I can't begin to imagine what he himself is going through right now.

        4. As one who was frequently bullied in grade school (and to a lesser extent in high school), I entertained some fantasies that curdle my blood just thinking back on them. On the other hand, I was friendly toward my teachers, and I had a couple of close friends who were also outcasts. So, while "dark writing" from a student might be indicative of a deep-seated problem, I believe it should be viewed as one in a cluster of potential "red flag" behaviors.

        5. Let's say a student writes a disturbing piece that causes that individual to be placed in counseling. For someone like Cho, such a move might have avoided this tragedy. For a student who is healing through that writing and the catharsis it creates, and for whom counseling might actually prove counterproductive, that individual now has a diagnosis on his or her medical record that might well be incorrect, exacerbating the problem further.

        6. So maybe a system needs to be put in place that falls in-between doing nothing (which can create false negatives) and responding with full-blown intervention (which can create false positives). Some mandatory screening system implemented in light of certain behaviors, which would serve only as a screen and not as a permanent medical record unless further intervention is indicated. It would still be far from perfect, but it would be a start.
        • Re: When is DARK writing dangerous?

          Fri, April 20, 2007 - 5:09 PM
          I knew you guys would have amazing insights on this :)

          I really get a lot of catharsis out of writing, so I can relate to what you are saying, Elissa. I even killed off a character in a book that is based strongly on a person in my real life who is very much alive. It WAS more healing than years of counseling ever was on that subject. And that is part of my shitty first draft of my novel. So there.

          I shudder to think of creative, self-healing KIDS getting thrown into therapy needlessly. We NEED to have an outlet that is safe. I guess the difference between the sane and the insane might lie in the choice to submit those darker fantasies in a classroom? The whole issue troubles my mind right now.
          • Re: When is DARK writing dangerous?

            Sat, April 21, 2007 - 6:44 AM
            Case in point:

            "The Supreme Court, in a 6-to-3 ruling today, upheld the constitutionality of state laws that allow parents to commit their minor children to state mental institutions....In the case involving children, Chief Justice Warren E. Burger wrote in a majority opinion joined by four other Justices: 'Our jurisprudence historically has reflected Western civilization concepts of the family as a unit with broad parental authority over minor children...More importantly, historically it has recognized that natural bonds of affection lead parents to act in the best interests of their children.'
            — Linda Greenhouse, "Parents Upheld on Committing Minor Children," New York Times, June 21, 1979 (the U.N.'s "Year of the Child")

            "According to data compiled by the House Select Committee on Children, Youth and Families, admissions to inpatient psychiatric services of children under 18 more than doubled between 1970 and 1980. Between 1980 and 1984, adolescent admission to private psychiatric hospitals increased more than 350 percent, from 19,765 to 48,375.... A study by sociologists Carol Warren and William Staples of the University of Southern California describes hospitalization as 'a hidden system of adolescent social control.'... Perhaps partly as a result, psychiatric units for the young have become a growth item for the hospital industry."
            — D. Gelman, G. Raine, T. Jackson, S. Katz, D. Weathers, and V. Coppola, "Treating Teens in Trouble," Newsweek, Jan. 20, 1986.

            The authors of the Newsweek article make no mention of the 1979 Supreme Court decision.

            Without writing and fantasies, I don't know if I'd be alive today. I wrote about my own coping process (and tribulations) as a kid in
            hurricanecountry.blogspot.com/200...html
  • Re: When is DARK writing dangerous?

    Mon, April 23, 2007 - 11:12 PM
    It's been a busy week, and I've not been able to post much until tonight. This topic has been on my mind since it happened. I know many of the writing faculty at VaTech, and I've been on that campus more times than I can count. I also teach creative writing and literature at two different universities, so the topic of his writing is something that certainly deserves discussion.

    My fear is a knee-jerk reaction to "dark" writing. Most of my students write the cliched "revenge" story, or turn in manuscripts that contain some sort of violence or subject matter many might consider objectionable. But as I told my creative-writing classes, there's a profound difference between imagining violence on the page and becoming the violence imagined. CW professors at any level are in a unique position among educators. Giving our students a blank page on which to write is oftentime akin to the psychologist giving a piece of paper and a box of crayons to a traumatized child. Students will reveal, in oftentimes constructive ways, amazing pains and injuries. But we are not psychologists. We are not therapists. And we certainly are not policemen enforcing laws in an intellectual domain.

    In the years I've been teaching, I have had only one student who disturbed me in his writing. But that student was clearly troubled beyond the writing, and it was his actions in the classroom, not on the paper, that gave me pause. He also was a composition student, not a creative-writing student. And like any good professor, I talked to him and assisted him in getting the help he needed to deal with his past. Like others here have stated and most of us already know, writing can be a cathartic tool. If I didn't write, I think an essential part of me would explode. I would hate for the misguided actions of one troubled young man negatively impact what is, for many of my students, a liberating experience. And even though his writing is bad and not anything I would engourage, I will still defend the class that allowed him space in which to compose it, and the environment that might have been his only outlet other than his ultimate, tragic act.
    • Re: When is DARK writing dangerous?

      Tue, April 24, 2007 - 6:54 AM
      Thanks, Masque.

      I figured in your line of instruction that you probably knew some of those professors.

      Do you figure that teachers at the college level are going to all have extra training to identify students in crisis now, whether useful or not?
      • Re: When is DARK writing dangerous?

        Tue, April 24, 2007 - 10:04 AM
        I'm sure someone will push for that, but I don't think it ever will happen. Because you can't single out one kind of teacher for "special instructin" without making everyone take it. I think a more likely scenario is one in which all professors and adjunct faculty are given a brief introduction to counselling services and how to refer students they think need some sort of help. Even that seems unlikely to me, though. I think if anything, it will be a personal issue. You'll see profs and lecturers giving work a second thought now...which I think is unfortunate.
  • Unsu...
     

    Re: When is DARK writing dangerous?

    Fri, April 27, 2007 - 11:37 PM
    My turn to chime in. As both a professor and clinical psychologist, I can claim no special powers of prediction. His writing wasn't cathartic in the sense that it likely liberated him from feeling persecuted. It was likely the systematic paranoia of a schizophrenic. It's likely the shooter was a paranoid schizophrenic. Of the "pure" schizophrenics, the paranoid subtype is usually the most "organized" cognitively (as a blatant example, think of John Nash, the "beautiful mind" mathematician). The paranoid schizophrenic, statistically speaking, is also the most likely to engage in violence.

    Would the writing itself prove useful in predicting violence? No, unless his writing was as explicit as a plan to enact a particular scenario. Even then, the rules around danger to self or other resulting in an involuntary hold are rather stringent. While this young man's pre-shooting behavior indicated the presence of severe psychiatric illness, the pieces only form a coherent picture in retrospect. Unfortunately, in the absence of a specific plan, there is often little that can be done from a mental health law perspective. The school could have done something administrative but only if there was sufficient evidence that he presented a clear and present danger. For example, if a patient of mine, within the context of my doctor-patient relationship, intimated that he felt persecuted by classmates and that he wanted to lash out at them still requires a fair amount of reasonable evidence to initiate an evaluation through at least two channels, often called "reporting situations." The first situation is the evaluation for involuntary detention, the so-called 5150, based on the patient's behavior that is deemed to be a danger to himself, or another, or is a danger to himself by virtue of grave disability. As a clinical psychologist I cannot actually admit my patient to a psychiatric facility; I can only start the ball rolling for a designated agent to initiate the involuntary hold evaluation (often this is the police or another designated official or a psychiatrist in a facility). The second "reporting situation" is the so-called Tarasoff situation wherein a patient presents a clear-and-present danger to an identifiable victim or victims. My obligation is to warn the victim and alert the authorities. Again, it requires a rather specific imminent threat to a readily identifiable victim or victims (I am going to kill my neighbor is one example; I am going to firebomb the bowling alley is another).

    People have questioned why the mental health system failed this young man. In a way, it is surprising that he ever came into contact with them in the first place. It is difficult to get the attention of the mental health system, especially in a large metropolis.

    As for the writing part, were the indications there? Only in retrospect and only in context of what he turned out to be.
  • Well, here's something else to ponder

    Tue, May 1, 2007 - 9:18 PM
    I got a call this afternoon asking if I could substitute for a professor teaching a writing workshop in the class before mine. I said sure. Come to find out, the professor was "scared to teach that class" after one of his students wrote a short story vividly detailing the professor's torture and murder. A police report was filed. Psych Services was contacted. The student is not removed from the classroom, and the professor has now received a letter of reprimand, because the university fears a lawsuit.

    Weird.

    Weirder still, the rationale for asking me to substitute was that I had been "in the military, and you know all about firearms." Really? Thanks. Are you going to issue a pistol to me prior to entering class? Or are you just hoping I'll survive the initial round of gunfire and be able to tell you with absolute clarity the type of weapon used to shoot me.

    It's all turned out to be much ado about nothing, as the class has been allowed to move on-line for the final weeks in the semester. But the class met right before mine and in the same classroom. Guess who'll be looking over his shoulder tomorrow...
    • Re: Well, here's something else to ponder

      Wed, May 2, 2007 - 6:49 AM
      What a mess!

      Yeah, I used to be a chef, so does that make me an expert on knives? Or all pointy objects?

      On the one hand it is a complement to you, if a left-handed and clumsy one.

      On the other hand, the professor was reprimanded for fear of lawsuit? Nice backlash. What a crazy world.
  • Re: When is DARK writing dangerous?

    Wed, May 2, 2007 - 8:48 PM
    Belay my last.

    I will be substituting for the class after all.

    There are so many problems, I don't even know where to begin.

    I don't know the whole story yet.

    I have to meet with the Dean, Associate Dean, and Department Chair prior to my taking over.

    I feel like I'm about to walk barefooted through a mindfield. I'll let you know how it works out.
    • Re: When is DARK writing dangerous?

      Wed, May 2, 2007 - 10:14 PM
      And meanwhile the big concern is that the student will sue? What the hell? What about the overall safety and peace of mind of that poor instructor? ANY student on ANY campus right now ought to be aware of how that kind of material is going to go over. Let us know how it works out.

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